Brazil 40 Reis Counter-Marked Coin Grading help? [Resolvido]

Hello! I'm interested in knowing how I might grade this coin… I presume it'd be fairly low? Does having it counter marked make it overall lower?

Also, I need to invest in a scale to weigh my collection, could anyone recommend one? thank you so much!

The Coin:

1827 Brazil 40 Reis

38mm

weight unknown

Script: Latin

Lettering: 
PETRUS.I.D.G.CONST.IMP.ET.PERP.BRAS.DEF
40
+1828 R+

Reverse:

Script: Latin

Lettering: IN + HOC + SIGNO + VINCES

Welcome to Numista. It is always best to remove the coin in question from the flip to better asses exactly what you have and how best to grade it. I believe you made an error in typing the date and I believe I see an 1827 R countermarked 40 reis. Context is important here regarding the countermark as countermarking these types was rampant at the time and the Brazilian government took action in an attempt to stop countermarking from private as well as local countermarking. Please read the comments provided in the following link for details about countermarking. Purists want unmolested coins so unless you can find someone specifically interested in countermarked varieties, it does indeed lower the appeal to collectors and therefore value. Because of the rather heavy wear on the shield, I would judge this coin to be in the Very Good 8 to Fine 12 range at best. Still a very interesting coin in my mind, just not much value there unfortunately.

N#3974

thank you so much for your reply and, for pointing out my missing letter in the date… I'm still very very much a novice at this world of coins, and am teaching myself as I go~ I will bookmark your link and read it thoroughly. thank you again!

Tools:

Scales Amazon: 10.99 US$

https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Digital-Jewelry-Backlit-Stainless/dp/B07DJBDL6L/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1DIOOQPTFWW4P&keywords=jewellers+scale&qid=1675588664&sprefix=jewelers+scale%2Caps%2C182&sr=8-3

Caliper Amazon: 9.99 US$

https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Caliper-Sangabery-inches-Vernier/dp/B07VSVMWTJ/ref=sr_1_5?crid=23BCWSKQ7CHPC&keywords=caliper+measuring+tool&qid=1675588795&sprefix=caliper%2Caps%2C164&sr=8-5

My tools are older, but it's not expensive to be well equipped, the magnet you probably already have on your fridge.

harryg

 

[…] Context is important here regarding the countermark as countermarking these types was rampant at the time and the Brazilian government took action in an attempt to stop countermarking from private as well as local countermarking. Please read the comments provided in the following link for details about countermarking. Purists want unmolested coins so unless you can find someone specifically interested in countermarked varieties, it does indeed lower the appeal to collectors and therefore value. Because of the rather heavy wear on the shield, I would judge this coin to be in the Very Good 8 to Fine 12 range at best. Still a very interesting coin in my mind, just not much value there unfortunately.

 

N#3974

But these are official countermarks. So a Brazilian collection without them is incomplete. Yet I agree that they are rather inexpensive.

In assessing the grade of a countermarked coin, the countermark is graded first, e.g. “countermark VF on VF host” (as I think we have here). In the present case the host is of unusually high grade, so this is a plus and increases the value.

Camerinvs

harryg

 

[…

But these are official countermarks. So a Brazilian collection without them is incomplete. Yet I agree that they are rather inexpensive.

 

In assessing the grade of a countermarked coin, the countermark is graded first, e.g. “countermark VF on VF host” (as I think we have here). In the present case the host is of unusually high grade, so this is a plus and increases the value.

He says matter of factly. In the case of the OP's coin, that blanket statement is simply not true at all. This coin shows a private or local countermark and not an official corrected Brazilian government countermark to cover the existing countermark. Show us where the source of this particular countermark originated from. Please tell us what country this countermark came from. Portugal, Mozambique, Angola, etc, etc,. Where and who exactly? Private, local?  Exactly what Brazil was attempting to control with official government countermarks.

I can see where this subject is of particular interest to you because of your area of interest in collecting Canadian countermarked coins. This is a specialty interest and you are most certainly a minority that places a premium on Canadian countermarked coins. I would like to hear from collectors of countermarked Brazilian or otherwise Portugal and it's colonies countermarked coins to put this subject in perspective. I doubt there are very many out there in the first place.

harryg

Camerinvs

harryg

 

[…

But these are official countermarks. So a Brazilian collection without them is incomplete. Yet I agree that they are rather inexpensive.

 

In assessing the grade of a countermarked coin, the countermark is graded first, e.g. “countermark VF on VF host” (as I think we have here). In the present case the host is of unusually high grade, so this is a plus and increases the value.

He says matter of factly. In the case of the OP's coin, that blanket statement is simply not true at all. This coin shows a private or local countermark and not an official corrected Brazilian government countermark to cover the existing countermark. Show us where the source of this particular countermark originated from. Please tell us what country this countermark came from. Portugal, Mozambique, Angola, etc, etc,. Where and who exactly? Private, local?  Exactly what Brazil was attempting to control with official government countermarks.

 

I can see where this subject is of particular interest to you because of your area of interest in collecting Canadian countermarked coins. This is a specialty interest and you are most certainly a minority that places a premium on Canadian countermarked coins. I would like to hear from collectors of countermarked Brazilian or otherwise Portugal and it's colonies countermarked coins to put this subject in perspective. I doubt there are very many out there in the first place.

This is from the coin page you yourself quoted:

It says that all coppers were countermarked thus, not just coins that had been privately countermarked. 

Are you claiming the countermark in the OP is a private imitation of an official Brazilian countermark? Then the burden of proof is on you.

Please tell me where you see the government countermark on the OP's coin. I certainly dont see it. Perhaps a local or a private countermark as suggested? How does this add value? Anybody interested in collecting this coin due to its unknown countermark? Offer a premium for it? I'll wait.

There are many variants:

I guess people see what they want to see. The outline of 4 with no features of  a government issued countermark coin as in the example but curiously still see an 0 from the original minting. How is that possible? The O is hollowed out and not raised as in the other examples with no details of the government issued 0. This coin was privately or locally altered/ countermarked as far as I am concerned. Still waiting for someone remotely interested in this coin for it's countermarked attributes government, private, or locally altered.

harryg

I guess people see what they want to see. The outline of 4 with no features of  a government issued countermark coin as in the example but curiously still see an 0 from the original minting. How is that possible? The O is hollowed out and not raised as in the other examples with no details of the government issued 0. This coin was privately or locally altered/ countermarked as far as I am concerned. Still waiting for someone remotely interested in this coin for it's countermarked attributes government, private, or locally altered.

It's because the numbers are incused on the punch, so there is much less impact on the coin over the “40” than anywhere in the field which is the raised part on the punch. I may not know much about countermarking, but I do know the basics.

In the Krause catalogue, one sees two different styles of the “10” countermark, with no hint that any one of them was private. In fact, the little screen capture above is from Krause.

Greg Brunk in his 2003 (Merchant and Private Countermarks) book discusses only private countermarks, and those of Brazil are mostly attributed to ranchers. The numerals “10”, “20” “40” and “80” are not discussed because they are official/ governmental. One of the coins he shows has a “40” along with an “[I.C.]” rancher's private countermark, but he discusses only who “I. C.” is and doesn't even mention the “40”.

@Sjoelund

Thank you so much!