France - Missing Douzain Type [Resolvido]

I think this Douzain type is missing in numista.

It is from 1590-1599

Obverse: there is a crowned letter at the left of the Ecu de France, a ‘H’ or ‘I I’.

HENRICUS IIII (?) D G FRANC ET NAV (or NAVA?) REX

Reverse:

SIT NOMEN DNI BENEDICT 159?

(most coins have BENEDICTUM, this has BENEDICT, also DNI instead of DOMINI)

Cross scalloped cantoned at 1 and 4 of a crown, at 2 (and 3?) of a lily.

The diameter is 22-26mm.

(This specific coin has also a chopmark, but that is not part of the original Douzain)

hi,

the host coin is this one: N#58464

and here with counterstamp: N#37353 (many host coins possible for this one, see year lines)

abidbol

the host coin is this one: N#58464

Thank you very much!

The coin is very similar, but the text on the obverse seems to be moved ~180°. For example, the coin you linked has ‘REX’ at 11 o'clock, and ‘IIII’ at 4 o'clock. My coin has ‘REX’ at 5 o'clock and ‘IIII’ at 10 o'clock.

On the reverse, the coin you linked has the word ‘BENEDICTVM’, but my coin has ‘BENEDICT’ (without VM).

Is this still considered the same coin? Maybe different mints made different dies or something like this?

Or are there enough differences, that it is a new type?

Thank you also very much regarding the countermark information!

coin-robot

Is this still considered the same coin? 

Yes it is. Lettering variations from a die to another are usual, especially at the end of the legend: obv. NA / NAV / NAVA ; rev. BENEDICT / BENDICTV / BENEDICTVM. Obv. legend can begin at 6h (yours) or 12h (link). These minor variation are usual and not listed, it doesn't change the type.

coin-robot

Maybe different mints made different dies or something like this?

Yes absolutely different dies. Different mint also: this type has been minted only in Clermont-Ferrand (O mintmark) and Sisteron (no mintmak). The picture on the link is from Sisteron and yours is from Clermont. The mintmark is at 6h on obverse. 

Here we can see most of the douzains from Clermont have obv. legend starting at 6h. (all those with legend starting at 12h are in bad condition and have no mintmark visible, I think they're wrongly attributed to Clermont and might be from Sisteron)

abidbol

coin-robot

Is this still considered the same coin? 

Yes it is. Lettering variations from a die to another are usual, especially at the end of the legend: obv. NA / NAV / NAVA ; rev. BENEDICT / BENDICTV / BENEDICTVM. Obv. legend can begin at 6h (yours) or 12h (link). These minor variation are usual and not listed, it doesn't change the type.

 

coin-robot

Maybe different mints made different dies or something like this?

Yes absolutely different dies. Different mint also: this type has been minted only in Clermont-Ferrand (O mintmark) and Sisteron (no mintmak). The picture on the link is from Sisteron and yours is from Clermont. The mintmark is at 6h on obverse. 

 

Here we can see most of the douzains from Clermont have obv. legend starting at 6h. (all those with legend starting at 12h are in bad condition and have no mintmark visible, I think they're wrongly attributed to Clermont and might be from Sisteron)

Thank you very much, I still need to learn a lot about old French coins and your answer really helped a lot!

I hope it is okay to ask another question, 

I have this coin:
N#8721

But my coin has the text ‘FRACISCVS: GRA: DEI: FRACORVM: RE’ instead of ‘FRANCISCVS: GRA: DEI: FRANCORVM: RE’. Is this also considered the same type? I think it is strange that it misses a letter in the name of the king (and the country name).

No problem, it's still in the subject of “small lettering variation that doesn't change the type” ;)

Looks like the engraver had lost is “N” !!!

This is considered error lettering. It makes a sub-type, according to Duplessy: 

Normal type is Dy# 856 (your link), your coin is sub-type Dy# 856b (Dy# 856a being a sub-type with obverse legend on reverse and vice-versa)

Dy# 856b is known only for Villefranche mint, see examples here.

You can add a yearline on the page or ask referee to do it; or better post some photos on french forum to confirm the ID and mint, you'll have more replies there than my only one here!

Thanks again!

It's really a funny and amazing story, that I have this cool type of ‘error’ coin, because the engraver lost a letter.

Can you recommend me a French forum? My french is very bad, but I hope I could use it with a translate service.

Thanks again for all your help!

coin-robot

 

Can you recommend me a French forum? 

https://fr.numista.com/forum/forum4.html