How rare Is this coin? Öttingen-Wallerstein

Hello, how rare is this coin? Is it rarer than other coins of this issuer (4 kreuzer,thalers)? If we use system like R1,R2,R3… - this coin? And what is real, reasonable price? Krauze gives 410$ for VF and 825$ for XF, but…

Will be thankfull for answers and opinions

What is your source for the Krause price? Is it the current from Numismaster?

The 6th edition of the KM 1601-1700 book gives $450 for VF and $925 for VF. (But those are 2014 price estimates.)

There might not be anyone who has seen enough of them to give a good estimate for rarity.

7th edit, 2018.

you could use prices to estimate rarity. 2 kreuzers KM5 fetches similar price as 4 kreuzers KM6 despite being two times lighter.

Over 20 auctions for thalers on acsearch.info. Only two 2 kreuzers and four 4 kreuzers sales.

Can't find any sale offers on online stores. Plenty of ~1775 6 kreuzers from Ottingen there.

Prices are always for haggling, as said before someone has to be willing to buy first.

As for rarity „Numista Rarity index: 100“ means as far as I know nobody on this website owns it from the 250.000 + members, or at least maybe just 1 or 2 members do.

This coin N#89878 has a mintage under 20.000, is tiny and from 1811 and has rarity index 94 - so 100 is RRR ….

You can't extrapolate “rarity” from the NRI this is said ad nauseam.

In order if relative importance, you are comparing:

• a quite old catalog entry #89878 to a very new one #451753, less time for people to add to their collection.
• a more modern 19th century coin to a 17th century one, a considerable difference for smaller mintage coins
• a relatively small collection field Swiss coins to an either very much smaller Öttingen-Wallenstein or a gigantic one HRE, the chance for somebody to collect a specific coin gets much smaller

Recent sale of high grade example:  https://www.numisbids.com/sale/7315/lot/?lot=1058 .

So, maybe 50% of Krause price is realistic.

According to my definition of  “scarce,” yes, the coin is scarce, because we can't find it on the market (2 sales on acsearch in 20 years).

Value (price) depends on supply-demand balance and not scarcity per se.  Demand for small denomination coins is generally lower than for large denomination coins like Thalers. 

If you have one, congratulations.  Somewhere there is a German specialist who would like to add one to their collection.   

Idolenz

You can't extrapolate “rarity” from the NRI this is said ad nauseam.

In order if relative importance, you are comparing:

• a quite old catalog entry #89878 to a very new one #451753, less time for people to add to their collection.
• a more modern 19th century coin to a 17th century one, a considerable difference for smaller mintage coins
• a relatively small collection field Swiss coins to an either very much smaller Öttingen-Wallenstein or a gigantic one HRE, the chance for somebody to collect a specific coin gets much smaller

Of course you can, the rarity of over 250.000 members who don’t own the coin - it has a NRI (Numista Rarity Index) of 100, it is extremely extremely rare on this site as compared to a coin that has a NRI of 99, 98, 97, shall I continue?

As for your points;

- if anyone had owned this coin it would have been added earlier, thus having a older catalog entry. But no one did, because no one owned it, because it’s rare. So catalog number (and thus time on Numista is irrelevant).

- I wasn’t comparing coins, just using one as an example with a different NRI to point out how the NRI works.

- again irrelevant, using as an example.

Idolenz, it is good that you wanted to poo poo my comment instead of answering the original question. Which is all I was trying to do, by conveying the rarity.

King

…

- if anyone had owned this coin it would have been added earlier, thus having a older catalog entry. But no one did, because no one owned it, because it’s rare. So catalog number (and thus time on Numista is irrelevant).

 

 

There are some flaws wth this logic (along the lines of Idolenz' comments).

Sometimes a coin is held by a member but they don't want to go to the effort to add it to the catalog.

Sometimes no member owns a coin simply because it is an area with very few numista members collecing that type.  

… and so on.

There are probably hundreds of small denomination types from Italian States that are not in the catalog.  Here are a few that were added very recently that are neither rare nor valuable, but have nigh NRI numbers (which undoubtedly will be lower in a year):

NRI 97: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces447187.html .  40 euro in high grade for type:  https://www.numisbids.com/sale/8733/lot/?lot=1251

NRI 100:  N#437869.  35 euro in good grade for type https://www.numisbids.com/sale/3784/lot/?lot=503

NRI 97:  N#434596.  34 euro in high grade for type  https://www.numisbids.com/sale/6721/lot/?lot=1504

Of course what these three coins have in common is that they are far from “eye candy.”  As a result, many collectors ignore them, and they are inexpensive compared to contemporaneous silver coins.