Shortly past the turn of the century, an engineering accident turned a large salt basin into the Salton Sea, an ever increasing mass of salty water sitting in California's share of the Colorado Desert. Though at first an accident, it became a resort in the 1950's but, due to the dumping of pollutants in the sea, the Salton Sea has become an unattended wasteland.
How does the Salton Sea have any relevance in the tokens section? Your answer here: small accident, large mass created from nothing, potential created, potential vanished. Until now the tokens section had been given very little attention, and in the past few months it has been the spotlight issue on the site.
Over the past week I looked over and revised US transit tokens in the *Tokens* section, giving them better organization and assigning them catalogue numbers, probably the first modification I've made within a month or two. By far they are not coins. But they belong on the site. By no means are they banknotes or beer caps or teabags (or whatever non-numismatic bullcrap Colnect members seem to collect). But not all tokens are the same, which is why they cannot be lumped into categories by country.
The only real solution to the tokens section is not to delete them, but we must give them organization, give them love. We must create categories for the tokens, the fantasy pieces, the medallions.
Recovering the Salton Sea to its former glory is expensive and, ultimately, hopeless. Recovering the tokens section costs nothing. I'm not looking to point fingers at the site or at members. I'm not here to instill some off-topic, pointless patriotism among members of the site. I'm looking for ideas on what categories we should create for tokens. Transit tokens, tourist tokens, and merchandise tokens are just a few. Can we name a few more? I am willing to make every effort to add all these categories, but before I make any improvements, I need your suggestions.
Here is a list of different categories of tokens I have created:
Advertisement tokens / jetons publicitaires
Merchandise tokens / jetons de "bon pours"
Military tokens / jetons militaires
Transit tokens / jetons de transport
Bullion rounds / jetons bullion
Local dollar tokens (ex. Canadian dollars w/ expiration, Polish dukaty, Dutch florijn)
Play tokens (metal and plastic) / jetons de jeu (metal et plastique)
Royal jetons / jetons royaux
Operation tokens (telephone) / jetons de fonctionnement (telephoniques)
Consommer tokens / jetons consommer
Cafe tokens / jetons de cafe
Mint tokens / jetons de atelier (?)
If you do not see a token category in the list, please reply below.
(Some tokens I have removed from the list, such as modern fakes, since very few members had included them in their collection, and because they do more harm than good.)
Categories must be written as "Country - category" so that it appears as "*Tokens* - Country - category"
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
Strange I see it the opposite way, a medaillion often being small and having an attachment and a Medal being rather large in size. Before you make any changes I think of coirse its great to discuss it here and bring in some improvement ideas but the Numista Team needs to make a unified decision first otherwise it will just end in disaster again.
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
What about the idea we came up with in the "How do you think exonumia should be handled on this site" thread where I suggested they be added in with the country.
So New Zealand's hyperlinks at the top of the country would be
If you wanted to you could have sub categories under the exonumia...I would suggest:
* Medals/medallions/medalettes grouped into one category
* Bullion coins
* Merchant tokens (tokens issued by merchants that were used as currency. Things like the "good for 5 cents of trade" tokens, "Bon Pour" tokens, Condor tokens, etc)
* Commercial tokens (things used for specific items, like milk or bread tokens, telephone tokens, laundry tokens, amusement tokens, casino chips etc)
* Tourist tokens (tokens issued as collectors items like coronation tokens, tokens commemorating special events, etc)
Citação: neilithicWhat about the idea we came up with in the "How do you think exonumia should be handled on this site" thread where I suggested they be added in with the country.
To some extent I agree with you Neil. Instead of lumping all of the tokens into one country named *Tokens*, they should be distributed among the countries they belong to. But not the country list. The tokens must be given their own country list if we want to seriously organize the tokens. But until this is possible, we must add categories to the tokens.
I made an edit to the original post including all types of tokens as a survey-style post (like MPCC except I actually provide updates).
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
Kenny, I don't have many categories to add to the list, but I am thankful someone has taken this project on. I have added several tokens in the past that actually circulated (Siam gambling tokens, good for's, hard times tokens etc), and it always felt odd that tokens that circulated were in a pile with car wash tokens and Chuck e Cheeses tokens.
The only thing I would like to add to the list is Merchant Tokens. One that were say "Good for 5 Cents at Circle Bar" and the like.
This is assuming I understand what you mean by Merchandise tokens. For example, I have two tokens before me right now. One is a Red Goose Shoes token and one is a Ivory Soap token. Both of these are from around the Depression Era and circulated somewhat as small change and I am contemplating on adding them. Would these be Merchandise tokens or Merchant tokens?
I am not trying to be difficult, as I really do support what you are doing. And I believe you are correct that these are numismatic items. I am just asking a clarifying question.
Citação: jadejackalThe only thing I would like to add to the list is Merchant Tokens. One that were say "Good for 5 Cents at Circle Bar" and the like.
This is assuming I understand what you mean by Merchandise tokens. For example, I have two tokens before me right now. One is a Red Goose Shoes token and one is a Ivory Soap token. Both of these are from around the Depression Era and circulated somewhat as small change and I am contemplating on adding them. Would these be Merchandise tokens or Merchant tokens?
Yes this is what I mean by merchandise tokens, maybe merchant tokens would've been better? This includes all tokens with the "good for" denominations. Tokens that do not have a value but are simply advertising may have their own category as advertisement tokens.
This is to de-criticize the numismatic and historical value your merchant tokens have. The most organized section so far is the Transit tokens since they have the most information.
I will create a "Gambling Tokens" section for the ceramic Siamese tokens
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
Just to throw in my 2 cents I think there is a valid case for including certain tokens within the Numista database since they have genuine numismatic significance and interest. One type that doesn't fall into this category, in my opinion. are the "elongated pennies" - they have absolutely no numismatic interest and are cheap, nasty fairground gimmicks. Please, please, please do not include them here or I think you will seriously de-value the legitimacy of the Numista catalogue.
Just because you can't see it ... doesn't mean it isn't there - Anon.
Citação: radrick007Please, please, please do not include them here or I think you will seriously de-value the legitimacy of the Numista catalogue.
Don't worry, it is a unanimous decision (even by Xavier himself) to completely delete these from Numista. I'll take a look at the catalogue this weekend and remove them.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
Citação: derfAn average consensus amongst several sites seems to be the following.
Ø80mm and above = Medallion
Ø25.40mm > 79.99mm = Medal
Ø25.39 and below = Medalet
OR
In my opinion, a simpler way would be to classify them as they seem.
Medallion = regardless of its Ø, used as a display for a person, place, event etc... Meant to be displayed on a table, counter or display case
Medal = regardless of Ø, meant to be worn, having a method of attachment to the body, such as Olympic medals, achievement medals or Military medals.
I really like this simple answer regarding what each of these categories are. By your first definition, we should not keep medallions (I think of geocache medallions), and by your second, I think of military orders (which the team and Xavier have agreed to remove). By your second answer, medallions can refer to tourist tokens or even the Numista token itself. This is why the first answer poses a very interesting question and answer within itself.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
Citação: radrick007Please, please, please do not include them here or I think you will seriously de-value the legitimacy of the Numista catalogue.
Don't worry, it is a unanimous decision (even by Xavier himself) to completely delete these from Numista. I'll take a look at the catalogue this weekend and remove them.
Thanks Kenny, that's very reassuring and thanks for all the hard work you are putting in here.
Just because you can't see it ... doesn't mean it isn't there - Anon.
Yeah, I hate to be down in elongated cents because I feel coin collectors need to stick together, but I just don't feel they have any numismatic value and likely don't belong in the catalog.
Added a new category: automatic tokens / jetons automatiques
This is for tokens that were used for vending machines, especially tokens with slots cut through the diameter of the token (think of Italian or Eurocent tokens), but can include other vending tokens. This is different from Arcade tokens, which are solely for arcades and usually have "NO CASH VALUE" on the reverse.
This is by far one of the largest categories to the *Tokens* section that will make members very happy.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
No, but you can deselect "non-circulating" from your search default. This will eliminate all "Niue Cook Island tiffanyglass Hutt River goatshape glow in the dark crap"
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
Kenny, could these work as advertising tokens? All of the shell ones I have seen have a shell logo on the back. Or is there something I am not considering?
Advertising tokens is close, what you're thinking of is late 19th, early 20th century brass or copper tokens that had a grocer's name on one side, and the merchandise and address on the reverse. But you're on the right track.
Usually the Shell / BP tokens come in large sets, the Canadian Centennial, "tressor", World Cup, and presidential tokens to name a few. Since they are in such large numbers, they should have their own category (although I give transit and telephone tokens to all countries since they are official). The category should not be named Shell or BP since the category should apply to all countries.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
In Canada, Shell distributed a lot of different brass-plated zinc medallions in the late 60s and early 70s. These had different themes - "Provincial and Territorial Flowers", "Prime Ministers of Canada" (issued 1970, running from MacDonald to Trudeau), and I think more may exist but they're less common. They seem to have been intended for display, as I have a complete set of Prime Minister medallions in an official cardboard backing; the back advertises a "Permanent Walnut Mounting Plaque" for only $2.50 so you could display your medallions with pride.
My recommendation for this category's name would be "Promotional Gas Station Medallions", as they seem to have been an international phenomenon. Here are some scans of my Prime Minister set:
While not coins they are often mistaken for tokens because they have a weight and wording that can look like a value. I see we have some already in the catalog and it might be useful to put them in their own category so people don't get confused about what they are.
Case in point, I had one in my collection for years before I figured out the attribution one day (largely by accident).
The only other suggestion I have at the moment is that there are some Mardi Gras tokens in the catalog. Since these seem to be collected as a group should they be moved to their own section? As far as I can tell (and I could be wrong) they seem to be a mostly American phenomena....
Apothecary weights could be listed as pharmacy tokens. They are tokens as well. I don't think there are enough Mardi Gras tokens to qualify as its own category, but "Festival Tokens" would probably be the most suitable category.
Working on the tokens section has made me incredibly stressful so I will take a break on the work, if altogether. There are simply too many tokens calling for monotonous work and little attention or reward, not to mention constant negative comments from members regarding my work and others' work. Enough stress has caused some problems between my family, partner, and friends so no work will be made on the section for a while on my behalf.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
CitaçãoAll private homes connected to the gas or electricity network had a meter. Gas and electricity had to be pre-paid, by buying tokens. Once in a while, a meter inspector would pass by and empty the machine, so that the tokens could be sold again.
CitaçãoAll private homes connected to the gas or electricity network had a meter. Gas and electricity had to be pre-paid, by buying tokens. Once in a while, a meter inspector would pass by and empty the machine, so that the tokens could be sold again.
Utility tokens seems like a good name for "Good for" merchandise tokens that are for other products (gas, bread, etc.). What other countries would include Utility tokens?
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
I would limit "utilities" to what they mean on the game board of Monopoly and your monthly rent - electricity, gas, water, things supplied to your house via pipeline.
By this definition, I've only encountered utility tokens for the Netherlands. Most other countries seem to have had utility meters that accepted real coins.
Food tokens (for bread, etc.) are interesting, because the distinction between food and non-food merits a bit of discussion. Here's what I would divide food/resource tokens into:
- Ration tokens: issued by the military or the government to limit resource consumption, either among the civilian population or its own ranks. Here's one of mine, a Canadian ration token from the closing months of WWII, made out of blue cardboard, good for a certain weight of meat: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces50617.html
Many militaries and governments across the world have issued these kinds of tokens, so I think they should have their own category. (However, usually paper ration coupons are issued instead of tokens.) Here's an American one: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces21179.html
- Promotional food-related tokens could be added to your proposed "merchandise tokens". I know lots of bakeries, etc. issued tokens that would be good for one loaf of bread, etc. To me, this kind of token isn't much different from tokens that are exchanged for inedible consumer goods.
Now, while we're talking about ration tokens, we can also talk about "military tokens". I can think of two further categories for these.
You have a point, and by these definitions I'm trying to create categories that all countries can share (which is why Promotional (Gas) Tokens or Automatic Tokens are such great categories).
Ration tokens is a good idea, I think of Kyrgystan gas tokens, although I think this category could be limited to utility tokens.
Military tokens extends to NAAFI pogs in Iraq or US "mess hall" tokens in Okinawa, but very rarely will you find them listed for the countries they were sent to; rather, as British and American military tokens, respectively.
Many promotional food-related tokens (called jetons alimentaires in French) can be covered by Advertising tokens (often with an address or phone number), but many could be called Cafe tokens or your idea of Ration tokens, really any "Good for" / "Gut fur" / "Bon pour" tokens.
Challenge tokens is a category really only covered by one country, they are moreso medallions than anything.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
I want to give a very big thank you to Tatyana for moving 300 tourist mint tokens to the correct category (*Tokens* - France - Monnaie de Paris Tourist Tokens). Glad to know I wasn't working alone!
Another big thank you to nalaberong for his additions and changes to the Promotional Gas Tokens and Local Dollar Tokens of Canada, not to mention there are so damn many!
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
Citação: KennyGI want to give a very big thank you to Tatyana for moving 300 tourist mint tokens to the correct category (*Tokens* - France - Monnaie de Paris Tourist Tokens). Glad to know I wasn't working alone!
Another big thank you to nalaberong for his additions and changes to the Promotional Gas Tokens and Local Dollar Tokens of Canada, not to mention there are so damn many!
Today I bought about 300 so you're about to see a whole lot more
The Supprimer category was made for tokens that should be deleted, according to Florino. Many of these should not be deleted, but some obvious ones should be removed (buttons or pins, modern fakes, pressed pennies). The computer I am using does not allow me to move or delete collections, but when I get the chance I will remove pressed pennies based on popular opinion. I want medallions to be moved back but there is no clear decision with what to do with them.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
Why don't you invite Tolga Bey from Turkey, who is actually an expert on this?
I guess you could use his expertise, though he might have left Numista totally after the criminal teammember was marauding the entire token's section, but find him on facebook, I am sure he is willing to help!
Currency tokens,such as Professor Holloway's 1/2 & 1 Penny dated 1857 & 1858,should be given full listing under the coin categories,as they were put into circulation during severe shortages of coins.
To me,as they circulated like coins,they should be classed as coins.
They are probably listed under Australia because they were shipped there instead of London. All other currency tokens are listed in a category alongside regular coinage.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
I Know these were placed in Tokens because they have an X# catalogue number, but why?
Only difference I can see is that they are circulating medals instead of tokens.
They should all be on thesame catalogue side.
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
I think for Europe we should use the name of "Necessity money", or other terms used in English (I found "Emergency money" for example). I know in French we call it "Monnaies de nécessité". Note that other names are used in their own languages, as "Notgeld" in German and Noodgeld in Flemish (Belgium). All these tokens were struck because of lack of currency during, mainly, WWI. By this way, we should merge the Notgeld sections from concerned countries, as cities Notgeld were not the only coins used for these particular needs
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
I think that everything that comes under France or French should all be merged into one category of "France".
Like German notgelds in "Germany - 1871-1948"
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Nice old thread. Lots of opinion about pressed pennies, rolled pennies, or whatever they are called this decade. But should they be excluded? They are actually struck on coins after all. Ive seen them at shows where the host coin is italian, french, portuguese. I dont know. I always think it's cute seeing little kids make them at the museums and fairs I visit. But I also understand their exclusion from Numista...but then I trip over listings for Sealand...or Hutt River...so I really dont know...standards can be nice.
Library Media Specialist, columnist, collector, and gardener...
Right now, I believe anything done will be good deed.
For example, there are several new categories now - buillon coinage for Sweden and USA, and Chinese New Year tokens. Any such category will bring a little more order to the token section. Also, managing those sections - unifying them under some standards will do some good, as it will be easier to separate them in the future. Or at least that is something I believe and I am trying to do.
Please notice some bullion coins have a face value. You are citing the US bullion coinage. Take for example the MPCC V silver bullion coin of $1...
Concerning tokens, I'd prefer a more strong split: tokens may be part of a second catalog, like proposed for banknotes earlier.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
I believe only those with no face value are there currently.
Separate catalogue would be nice, but even with it, it would be second messy catalogue present. It needs cleanup from the lowest things as coin values and names to the "higher" grounds as categories and whole states.
But a secondary catalog should be less messy as having a similar structure a coin catalog. Only categories like currencies as well.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
1 oz silver - Golden State Mint (Morgan Dollar)
1 oz copper - Zombucks (Feast)
Etc.
Mostly, it seems to work well, but for many rounds the mint isn't specified, and sometimes it's unclear what the design is, since descriptions are quite bad.
Tokens have become a permanent problem. About 80% of requests have become token requests, and has become a complete burden on the team. I ask members, who wish to make modifications to tokens in the future, to send me a PM regarding what changes you would like to make.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
And... what about old requests? I've counted 4 requests from at least 1 month ago, including 1 close to 2 months ago.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Oh, sorry, I think I might be to blame for part of this problem. I will stop my editing for now too, then. My offer to become co-referee for tokens still stands, though. I think we're onto something good with these categories.
And my duty begins. Thanks to Xavier, I just become a Catalogue administrator. There are currently 1056 requests to validate (not counting those made to countries with a referee). Yet I invite you Hamletmachine to keep on the work you do. Tonight, I will start my work and will try to do my best.
I think there is a valid case for including certain tokens within the Numista database since they have genuine numismatic significance and interest. One type that doesn't fall into this category, in my opinion. are the "elongated pennies" - they have absolutely no numismatic interest and are cheap, nasty fairground gimmicks. Please, please, please do not include them here or I think you will seriously de-value the legitimacy of the Numista catalogue. 
I will stop my editing for now too, then. My offer to become co-referee for tokens still stands, though. I think we're onto something good with these categories.