The images of both sides have nothing to do with the real coins in circulation:
Obv: the figure 40 on the lapel in fact is larger, then on the image https://static-numista.com/catalogue/photos/lettonie/g599.jpg, there are two extra horizontal lines on the head dressing etc. Rev.:https://static-numista.com/catalogue/photos/lettonie/g599.jpg the seacoast line differs, most dramatically at the SW of Sweden - in fact it is not straight, the dots on the land have other configuration everywhere, only the smallest of 4 islands next to Italy looks like on a coin. Should it be continued?
Collectors need images of reality, to compare the CATALOG images with what they have in hands and therefore to be sure that they are not cheated.
But now we are cheated by the most authoritative catalog in the modern world!
Unfortunately, the text for the same coin is a fake as well.
The description of the Rev. has nothing to do with reality. The reader should not guess there, where the accurate and laconic phrases are required.
The real coin appeared more then a year ago, it is very difficult to accept that during this period a team of referees had no time to delete fakes from the catalog and embed the description of the real coin.
Not every reader have the coin in question just in pocket, that is why here are images of a coin that was taken from a bank, therefore even I have every reason to believe that it is genuine:
This article represents fake without any note about it. Then there is a question. Could referee team inform how it is possible to be sure that description in any other article is about a coin and not about something unreal?
If this catalog is about fakes, then why there is no note about it? I neither collect nor deal with fakes and I prefer to keep far away from everyone, who spreads fakes and fake information.
I truly believe that such fakes even if they were put here intentionally, are not the rule at Numista and soon will be uprooted.
Citação: "cyprusalexander"It is interesting, why it is permitted to keep fakes and fake descriptions at the Numista catalog without any note that it is description of a fake?
The images of both sides have nothing to do with the real coins in circulation.
Collectors need images of reality, to compare the CATALOG images with what they have in hands and therefore to be sure that they are not cheated.
But now we are cheated by the most authoritative catalog in the modern world!
Unfortunately, the text for the same coin is a fake as well.
The real coin appeared more then a year ago, it is very difficult to accept that during this period a team of referees had no time to delete fakes from the catalog and embed the description of the real coin.
This article represents fake without any note about it. Then there is a question. Could referee team inform how it is possible to be sure that description in any other article is about a coin and not about something unreal?
If this catalog is about fakes, then why there is no note about it? I neither collect nor deal with fakes and I prefer to keep far away from everyone, who spreads fakes and fake information.
I'm sorry cyprusalexander, but I find your article very rude and disrespectful. Criticism is welcome, as long as it is constructive criticism, but yours is very destructive.
The pictures on the coinpage are design photos probably from long before the first actual coin was struck. And they were added in favor of the members so the moment the first possessors of the coin could already find it in the catalog. This has nothing to do with fakes.
You are right. The pictures (and the text) should have been replaced by pictures of the actual coin. But you are a member of this community too and you also have a responsibility to keep the catalog up to date and accurate. Instead of attacking the referees and shouting about cheating and fakes, there are better ways to a solution. You could tell in a decent way there is a problem with this coinpage, or even better, you could contribute yourself and make a change request with the actual pictures of this coin.
Essor Prof Posted: 13-Oct-2015, 01:08PM
I'm sorry cyprusalexander, but I find your article very rude and disrespectful. Criticism is welcome, as long as it is constructive criticism, but yours is very destructive.
Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I totally agree that to make fakes is very rude and disrespectful. I believe from the bottom of my heart that to distribute them is one of the main crimes in our collectors community. That is why there should be no compromise in this question and it is the task of the whole community to protect our values.
More over any state protects itself by very severe lows against money counterfeiters. And anyone who will even try to make payment with this "computer-generated concept" (nalaberong, Posted: 13-Oct-2015, 01:59AM) will immediately find him/herself in jail for so long time, that would be enough to learn on practice the difference between a coin and fakes, issued by any authority.
A collector in practice unfortunately is not protected by any low in the question of fakes. That is the reason, why there are many counterfeiters orientated on coin market.
That is why yes, I'm deeply sorry that:
Essor Prof Posted did not find it very rude and disrespectful for the whole numista team that permit local referees during years (!) feed the community with fakes.
This paragraph is very very strange:
[The pictures] were added in favor of the members so the moment the first possessors of the coin could already find it in the catalog. This has nothing to do with fakes.
You will find a lot of coins without images. Some of coins were issued more then 10 years! I could not believe you, that during these 10 years there were no first possessor of a coin, who found the coin in the catalog. More over the possessor in question found no image of the coin. And all this time the numista site had not distribute any fakes.
This example reveals that the whole line of the coins in question such as https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces53188.html
and many others is in fact the cheating the community and substitution of reality with counterfeits. That is why it is hard to agree with the statement.
As for the suggestion:
But you are a member of this community too and you also have a responsibility to keep the catalog up to date and accurate. Instead of attacking the referees and shouting about cheating and fakes, there are better ways to a solution. You could tell in a decent way there is a problem with this coinpage, or even better, you could contribute yourself and make a change request with the actual pictures of this coin.
...it is easy to see that I follow it word in word from the very beginning. The problem is that the fakes are at many places of the site! That is why this theme was created at the forum. That is why the polite (sorry to insist, but there is no shouting and attack) question at the very first post
Could referee team inform how it is possible to be sure that description in any other article is about a coin and not about something unreal?
till now has not answered at all.
I still wish to know in which way I can avoid pages with fakes.
Citação
That is why yes, I'm deeply sorry that:
Essor Prof Posted did not find it very rude and disrespectful for the whole numista team that permit local referees during years (!) feed the community with fakes.
I still wish to know in which way I can avoid pages with fakes.
You tell them Cyprusalexander. The best way for you to avoid pages without "fakes" is to ask for your money back... wait this site is free, and then create your own site where you can be the referee of millions of coins in which you can make sure there are no "fakes." When you realize how much work that is and some ungrateful guy pesters you about why you don't have an image or another you can proudly tell him that you don't have fakes in your site.
This thread is getting more comical by the second - there are no FAKES in the Numista catalog - just comupter generated images that are used by mints around the world.
Some mints do it better than others - have you ever seen US mint coin pictures? I doubt they are actual coins, but they are great computer generated images.
If you want to add genuine photos, add your own pic. That's all what we need to do.
EDIT: there are fakes, but only mentioned as tokens. Mainly Chinese fakes.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
I would say, less words, more action. While I understand your frustration about team members not responding at all, and I would myself somehow appreciated more attention to the new years/coins I post in the forum, there is nothing that holds you back working on the catalog.
There are no fake coins listed in Numista. You may replace the images with scanned images or photos of your own to replace the CGI, but images of fake coins should be deleted, if any exist.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
I totally agree. I find it if not disrespectful, very ungrateful to be using the website and refuse to collaborate with the community here. He needs to realize how much work goes into this and also do his part to insert a picture. It took him longer to do all the criticism than it would have taken him to do a change request. I want to take the opportunity and thank all the Numista team and members for all your hard work to keep this place running.
We should not forget that it is prohibited by low to use as you named them "computer generated images" as the legal tender.
That is why it proves that these items are common fakes.
Thank you for your advice to do the work of the team by myself. Yes, I'm experienced in it, you may see mine statistics (27 items in last month as result of laziness from nothing-to-do). But can you be more detailed, please, in order for me to consider this serious preposition?
Thank you Kenny for your constructive answer. So the only thing what is left is to follow your advice.
Well, let's see how quick for example the referee of the coins from which we started this fruitful discussion will follow the request of
Jarcek on 14-Jan-2016, 07:48PM :
I would say, less words, more action.
and confirm the reality instead of living in virtual world.
Nicely done, doing 27 items in the last month. Mine statistics stands at: 11 coins added, 78 years added, 586 coins edited, 1037 years edited for the last 14 days. I am lazy as hell. I also do not like those images, and I would prefer to replace them, but please wait until I get into Latvia part of the catalogue. Thanks for your patience.
I think there's a somewhat hilarious misunderstanding here. In our circles, the word fake clearly refers to a some piece of metal, often from the People's Mint of Shanghai, intended to deceive honest collectors. I would guess Alexander intended to use the word fake in a different context: not real, or basically, not the real image. Then he got carried away on having to watch a fantasy image instead of the real thing, and as a result the community is just telling him to just post the real ones.
It looks at least strange. It is enough time for a referee to approve fakes, yes, you may repeat this by sounds
f, as frame
a, as ace
k, as kite
and there is no time to delete them!
We should agree with jokinen
one big sigh....
Simultaneously, there are many coins in the catalog without these fakes and no one (even me :-)) complains. It is a challenge to make a lazy from-nothing-to-do work for everybody in the community and add the images. In this way your statistics, Jarcek, will become less, and this will be the reason for your proud.
Obviously, the image (please mark, I use the word "image") of a coin permits to compare it with another. Apart of being sure in authenticity a side result is that a new variety may be discovered. There are many examples of such discoveries. The fake from the very beginning stops anything. Just because it is a fake.
Dear neilithic! It is good advice. It means that even you may do that! Why not? What stops?
What stops me from doing it? The fact that I do not own the coin, nor have access to images of the coin. But anyway, I wasn't the one complaining, that was you.
rather than complaining, your best course of action would be to replace the photos.
You've posted numerous long posts which probably took you over 15 minutes in total to type out. In that time you could have replaced the photos, made yourself a cup of coffee, sat down in a cosy armchair and watched 10 minutes of Big Bang Theory rather than bursting a blood vessel worrying about an image of a coin.
Let's be serious one moment... Why were these images published? Because they're from national presentations of coin preliminary designs! Why should it be prohibited as these images are given by the emitting states themselves? Simply because they're not the final result of minting? No way, following your logic, every image should be destroyed or erased in the days following their presentation, that's ridiculous.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
At the first post there was a question. The answer was given by KennyG some posts later.
Yes, it is not the complete answer of the article in question, for its text represented and till now represents a fake as well.
Anyway from this answer it follows that it is OK to substitute these CGI (the term is used, for it was introduced by KennyG).
There is no complain there. Sorry, neilithic. More over it means, that everyone can do the same all over catalog and help in this way to referees and Numista team. That is good achievement of this post. There are so many images of fakes that it is not the question of a one person or two people to do this work.
The last remarks deserve to give some more comments. Personally I'm here for the passion to coins. Many other people are here, there could be other reasons for them. That is why I give you my experience.
I wrote 'passion to coins'. Yes, I'm interested in coins. Have you read 'passion to images' or 'passion to fakes'? I think, no. I clearly wrote: 'coins'. That is why it is at least courtesy from the side of referees to keep their part of catalog (you should remember, it is a large team work) free of fakes.
We are speaking about catalog. Catalog is a complete list of real items. Let our catalog reflects reality.
I glad my customers commissioning me to make a piece of jewellery don't subscribe to the rules as Alexander.
CGI pictures, concepts etc. are common practice with many sectors. If you disagree with the text or images, change them! I'm VERY new here, but I managed to work out how to update The Blaze half penny token (my avatar). It's pretty straight forward.
If you would rather have the grey circles that give you no idea of what it should look like as with some coins, just ask and I'm sure it will be done. If you have one now, please update the image.
The term "fake" suggests a conscious decision to deceive. I'm pretty sure that's not the intention here.
This website is a fantastic resource that is totally free AND you get to communicate with members around the world around subjects that matter. I'm not sure the "fake" accusation is the way to support it, more harm it. It's YOUR responsibility as well as everybody else's, to help it grow and get better, more accurate and easier to use.
Never aspire to have more, aspire to be more. (unless we're talking collecting of course).
The fakes could be in anyone practice, but there is no place for them in catalog.
Catalog is a serious edition, even in electronic form it is still serious. Of course, you are right these fakes do exactly what you wrote: they deceive. They never were and never will become coins. It is very good that you have so much zeal that you are ready to delete the first 47.
I've just figured out that sarcasm doesn't work in Google Translate.
The images aren't fake, they are computer generated by the issuing bank/mint of what they expect the coin to look like, an artists impression if you will. Through production, designs change. If you have one of these circulating coins, please could you edit it as you see fit.
The Numista website is free, the people running it are volunteers, they don't get paid. If this was a subscription service of £20/month+, I would expect more information and everything to be correct, but it's FREE. Members are free to submit updates, new images, new years and variations. Who is going to know more about the huge variety of variations than us, a global community of collectors, some of us with niche areas.
I have a good look around the site, and yes there are areas I would love to see improved, but generally it's superb.
Time to lay off I think.
Never aspire to have more, aspire to be more. (unless we're talking collecting of course).
Please stop to call the computer generated pictures "fakes". Those pictures are as much fakes as photos of coins are. You won't be able to buy anything using neither of these kinds of pictures because you need real coins. Fakes are counterfeit coins! Nothing more and nothing less. I don't know why this is so hard to understand...
I'm not orange and also in other things I'm not a Donald at all. DonChori like Don Felipe or Doña María, por favor.
Citação: "cyprusalexander"Let's start from the beginning.
I suggest let's start ending this idiotic topic. If you are, after all the good advice that is given here , still nagging about "fake" pictures, then you're just a hopeless case.
If you still don't know that a picture can't be a fake, I wouldn't call myself "Specialist in world coins and banknotes" on your website:
And calling these very common coins in very common circulation quality you are selling on ebay "from XF up to UNC included!", that's a "fake" statement.
I'm sorry for being impolite but you just don't know when to stop and it's getting really annoying and irritating. A lot of people put a lot of effort in improving and expanding the catalog, all on a voluntary basis and they don't deserve your negativism.
Dear DonChori. Let's have a look at the reality again.
At the very first post the problem was reveled. There it was proved that the article in question has nothing to do with real coinage: both the text and the images. Both parts refer to something, that does not recognized as legal tender. So they describe a souvenir. At the same time the coins exist. Been "Specialist in world coins and banknotes" as recognized at least by Essor Prof I have enough skills to attribute some coins. Unfortunately one of the coin, that I attributed as real, the Numista catalog refer not to an article about it, but to this very article about the souvenir. There is no article about coin in the catalog! The souvenir substitute the coin! Since this moment the souvenir became fake. When the article is somewhere and not in the catalog, no one cares (and you may give its parts, the text and images outside the catalog any name). When it is in the catalog and substitutes the reality, the same moment it becomes a fake. Note. Outside the catalog you may give it any name. Been in this function it is fake.
This is the fact. And this fact was proved in the very first post.
OK. The same in other way.
Let the coin issued at time X. Let someone wishes to put information about it some time in advance. Well, the referee got the new modification request. There is no coin yet, it means that the place of the image can be taken by anything. Occasionally the referee may approve this request before X. For advertisement reasons, for any others... Still it is not the article about this coin, it shows the intention to issue a coin. Let's name it article pre-X.
Time X. The coin exists. Since this moment the article about the coin in the catalog may appear, let's name it article X. Everything should be checked: the size, the metal, the mass etc. And the real images of the real coin should take their place in the catalog. It is not that simple as just to state that the article pre-X is exactly the same as article X. Been chosen as a referee the person has these skills in deleting the pre-X article and issuing the article X around the time X.
The example in the first post proved that at least one article pre-X is so far from reality, that it deceives the readers. We met with the strange situation, which was described in the first post: the images totally differ from the coin. The difference is so large, that does not permit to be sure in authentic origin of the item in hands! Together with the text, which describes fantastic things, the whole article is not about the coin. For it is a referee, who knows all articles pre-X, and it is the duty of the referee to issue the article X around the time X, it looks very strange why for years the referee of the fake in question permits this fake to substitute the coin and to deceive users of the catalog.
The question that was asked at the beginning was how to distinguish the articles about fakes from articles about real coins. The answer was given from Numista Team. It means, that yes, it worth to substitute these CGI into images of real coins.
That answer means:
It is catalog. Catalog describes coins. The images of coins is the must.
Since this answer:
1. I was satisfied with the answer and continued to send modification requests
2. I understood that my position does not contradict to policy of the Numista, and this case and similar to it (DamianMiles already found 47) may be considered as a mistake and not a rule.
3. I'm explaining to newcomers the importance of this substitution and it does not matter which way you name them outside the catalog.
We should agree with Essor Prof that a lot of people put a lot of effort in improving and expanding the catalog. And it is not polite to keep there articles that deceive readers. In many aspects it is one of the best catalogs. Let our catalog reflects reality.
[Here was a statement about a provocation. Deleted, for it is out of the topic of this part of forum]
Citação: "cyprusalexander"Side remark of Essor Prof about condition of coins. You are completely right. The modern commemorative coins in unc conditions are issued in rolls. To make the lot attractive a coin from a roll was put there.
You keep on nagging about the catalog is deceiving the catalog users because of some pictures that aren't 100 % correct. But you are deceiving your own customers by putting only one nice coin in a lot to ask more money for the entire lot, that's 1.000 times worse (or let's say X time worse) than a not 100 % right picture in our catalog. So please stop complaining about deceiving, stop deceiving yourself, and even better stop this whole idiotic topic before you loose any credit you might still have.
Am I the only one thinking that this is simply a matter of folks trying manfully to write in a strange language and choosing an incorrect term without any sinister implications?
Fake / Inaccurate / Obsolete / Expired, No Longer Relevant....... If the original post had been parsed thus would we have had the heated discussion which followed it?
Think gentlemen, is it worthwhile for equally respected members to develop a personal animosity over something so innocuous? I've followed the discussion for some time without comment as it seems to me the badly phrased question was answered in a satisfactory manner. Words spoken can't be undone and ill feelings can last a lifetime.
There are plenty of people who deserve our scorn and contempt but none of them are present in this topic. Let's stay on the same side and reserve our judgements for the thieves, scammers and trolls, not for each other.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
There are many thing to do with our catalog. I'm glad that many people participate in this dicussion both of theoretical and practicle importance. This discussion improves our understanding how to distiguish coins form anything else. It seems to me that we got an important result: the limits of usage of CGI are determined. It is good that everyone expressed personal consolidation with the necessity of un-rooting fakes from the catalog.
This site gives us many treasures for use. This forum is one of them. We are at the thread about its catalog. Let's follow the rule and express our opinions about the Numista catalog.
